S2 #13 Your business priority should be digital accessibility, inclusion

S2 #13 Your business priority should be digital accessibility, inclusion

S2 #13 Your business priority should be digital accessibility, inclusion

Josh Basile

Josh Basile

Josh works with accessiBe as the Community Relations Manager. Josh’s life was flipped upside down at the age of 18 when a wave slammed him headfirst against the ocean floor. He is now paralyzed below the shoulders and relies on a power wheelchair, assistive technology, and caregiving to live independently in the community. Josh’s paralysis did not stop him from moving forward and wheeling after his dreams. He graduated Magna Cum Laude from law school, passed the legal bar, and went to work for a prominent law firm in Washington DC. Josh went on to found a 501(c)(3) nonprofit called Determined2Heal and the world’s largest video mentoring platform called SPINALpedia, personally mentoring over 1500 newly injured families.

People with disabilities have $645 billion in disposable income. They want to spend money but have trouble leveraging their buying power because brands do not make their sites accessible to them. In fact, only 2% of websites are accessible for people with disabilities. Josh Basile talks about accessibility from a first-person perspective and what accessibility means to a disabled consumer. Josh also presents us with an alternative to recording all of the websites to be accessible. Have a listen!

accessibility, disability, online access, section 508, ADA, Americans with Disabilities Act, Accessibility law, WCAG, WCAG 2.1, Law N° 2016-1321 Article 106, Federal Ordinance on Barrier-Free Information Technology, Law 9 January 2004, n. 4, Provisions to support the access of disabled people to IT tools, Stanca Law
Episode number:
Date Published:
August 19, 2021

[00:00:00] INTRO: Welcome to the Power of Digital Policy, a show that helps digital marketers, online communications directors, and others throughout the organization balance out risks and opportunities created by using digital channels. Here's your host, Kristina Podnar.

[00:00:19] KRISTINA PODNAR, host: On today's Power of Digital Policy episode, we will hear from Joshua Basile, also known as Josh. Josh is a philanthropist. He's a lawyer, a C4-5 quadriplegics, and a community relations manager at accessiBe. Josh, welcome. We're excited to have you.

[00:00:36] JOSH BASILE, guest: It's great to be here, Kristina; thank you for inviting me.

[00:00:40] KRISTINA: In the past, we've heard from James Haverstock. We've heard from my colleague, Kevin Weinberg, and we talk about accessibility from a digital building blocks perspective. They both provided us with great insights on what it means to build accessibility into digital products and how to get organizations on board with building accessible digital products. But Josh is different because Josh can give us a personal account of what it's like to try and use digital products that are not accessible. And he can also help us understand from a policy perspective maybe where we should be going or what we should be thinking about. So I'm excited to hear that new perspective, and I'm sure you're going to have a great time listening to Josh's input. So, Josh, I know you shared with me before this call a little bit about your background; you are a philanthropist. You are a lawyer; you are a community outreach relations manager. And you also have this personal aspect or relationship with accessibility, which is your quadriplegic status. So just so everybody in the audience can understand what that means, can you maybe share a little more about yourself in all of those different areas?

[00:01:48] JOSH: Of course. My life was literally flipped upside down in 2004. I was on a family vacation at the beach. I turned my back to the ocean, and a wave picked me up, threw me over my boogie board, and slammed me on my head. That day I shader on my neck, the beginning of C4-5 quadriplegic. At the time, I was 18 years old. I finished my freshman year of college. And basically, when I was pulled to shore by my friends, I had a start to a new life. And with that new life being paralyzed on my shoulders, that first one was on the ventilator after those first five weeks. I couldn't speak to my family members and friends. The only way I could communicate was by blinking my eyes once for yes, twice for no. I decided from that moment on, when I regained my voice that I would make sure that every word counted from that moment on. And I ended up going to community college. Then to the undergraduate University of Maryland and then went to law school and graduated without ever turn the page with my fingers. So since my injury, I've tried to be the best advocate that I could be for my own life, but also for others, I started a nonprofit, and they do tons and tons of disability rights, but I love, I love making an impact and educating the world on a different perspective.

[00:03:11] KRISTINA: I appreciate that because I was thinking about this the other day, I had a presentation with a client, a team, and I gave a presentation showing my screen, and I flipped through the slides and, though I did a pretty good job delivering my presentation. And after the call, one of my colleagues or clients said to me, colleague over here has a visual discipline. And it would have been great if maybe you did the following things. Like if you actually called out what was on the slide, or as we flip to the next slide, he said on this next slide, here's what you're going to see. And it really dialed me in to the fact that even though I work with teams who talk about accessibility regularly, I oftentimes am neglectful in my own practices and my own everyday life. I've really considering I think everybody and what their needs are from an accessibility person. What do you want us to know about accessibility, especially in the digital space?

[00:04:04] JOSH: For any customer that you might have, or any audience that you're trying to deliver a message to, there are many different ways of it being absorbed and access. And for that person to be able to kind of fully get the full experience and depending on your unique abilities, there are different ways of having that information be delivered to you. So I know for me personally, before my injury, I really knew nothing about disability. All I knew was that Superman was paralyzed, and then I had my spinal cord injury, and it just, it opened my whole world of perspective on what disability means, not only with paralysis but for a blind or low vision for deaf hard of hearing or cognitive disability. Every disability kind of habit has its own unique way of being a part of this world and taking the time to recognize those different populations and how to access them and to reach them gives you the ability to expand your audience further and further. It's just it's so, so important to recognize that that, that you're not at fault for not knowing what you don't know. Even before my injury, not knowing much about disability is a reality. It's unless you have a disability or have a friend or a family with a disability, or work in a workplace where you serve persons with disabilities. Or if you're just interested in reading about disabilities, if you don't have those four things, you're likely don't have the touches to be knowledgeable about kind of what all of those different worlds could look like and how they experience.

[00:05:45] KRISTINA: We just celebrated the 31st anniversary of the ADA, the Americans with disabilities act. And, I started to think a little bit about this because the ADA certainly revolutionized regulating the access to the physical world aspect, but because it was introduced 31 years ago, a sizable hole exists in the law's oversight in the digital world just from your perspective. And again, I basically should say that you are a lawyer, but you're not giving out legal advice here nor speaking as a lawyer. But just because of your background, I am going to ask you, personally, What do you think about that? Like, should we be changing laws at this point in regulations? Is that the best way to address the needs of the disabled community? And to get to a greater level of accessibility?

[00:06:30] JOSH: Absolutely. The ADA was a transformative piece of legislation. When I was in law school, my advisor and my professor, Robert Bergdorf, who is, was one of the lead writers of the ADA. He basically put forward a kind of a blueprint of moving forward, but it's any piece of legislation needs to change with time and with industries and with technology. And everything else. In today's world, to keep improving and moving forward, rules and regulations need to be challenged rules and regulations need to be enforced, which is another huge component. Just because you have rules and regulations. If you don't have enforcement of it, a lot of times, people don't do it. Don't follow the rules. So there are so many pieces of the puzzle to making the world more accessible, but first is recognizing that a problem exists, and then next is doing something about it through solutions and pushing forward to make sure that you can change kind of the narrative of how the world is accessed and how it's inclusive. And welcoming kind of more, a broader audience to the table to really be able to have the same experiences, just like everyone else. And that's really all that persons with disabilities really want at the end of the day is we want to be included. We want to have the ability to have the same opportunities, just like everyone else, because we have so much to contribute, so much to give, and so much to be able to make the world a better place. And I love being able to be as active as I could possibly be because it's if you don't have enough people with disabilities in the workplace or in the community, we ended up become hidden. And when our voice, when we're hitting, our voices can not be heard. Our wheels can not be heard. Our stories cannot be here. And that becomes problematic, in my opinion.

[00:08:29] KRISTINA: So whose job is it to change that? Because I'm thinking about the range of disability. I think historically, we've thought a lot about disability as oh, you're blind or you're deaf, but my mom is disabled in the sense that she can't use a mouse anymore. She has carpal tunnel, and she just can't use a mouse. So she has a different type of disability, but it's nonetheless a disability. So there's this big range. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing, but how do we actually start to incorporate this so that it's not like you set a separate category of people or it's really just, you're my next-door neighbor, you're, you're JOSH, I'm talking to on the phone. You're not somebody who's disabled. How do we change that thinking? How do we educate who's responsible for that in our society? Because it seems like it's fairly fragmented. We have the ADA; as you said, it's about enforcement, but does it need to start earlier? Does it need to be societally sort of incorporated in a way that we don't have silos? What do you think should be done for that, and who should own that?

[00:09:24] JOSH: We're all improving as a society. The fact of the matter is that the ADA didn't exist prior because the country, whether or not they were ready for it, or might not have cared about it. And we're improving, improving, improving as a nation. I wish that existed from the beginning days, but it did not. And 31 years ago, it changed the world for persons with disabilities; I know for myself being injured in 2004, many years my life would not have been the same light. If my injury occurred in 1984, So it's just, we, we're improving as a society, having conversations like this are so important to broadening people's horizons and understanding that this is an important conversation to have. And, you're looking at TV commercials today and news media; you see so much more—representation of persons with disabilities. Just recently, earlier this month, accessiBe pushed out the first national TV campaign commercial. Uncle Dan Unstoppables where it promoted web accessibility and improving access to web accessibility for persons with disabilities. And it's the first time that's ever happened on a national level, and we're talking 20, 21. Why didn't that happen a long time ago, but you know what happened? So we're, improving; we're getting messages out. We're letting the world know that access and inclusion matter. Like I've been watching the Olympics. I've been seen so many more people with disabilities within those commercials having representation. I think we're moving in the right direction. I just wish we could do it exponentially faster, I guess, in my hopes and dreams.

[00:11:10] KRISTINA: Earlier this month, I read that the web accessibility lawsuits are attracting increased nearly 20% in 2021. My question for you is, our accessibility to losses is making a difference. Do you think, in the digital community, or should we be thinking about different strategies? Like, is that one of the levers that we need to pull in order to make a difference?

[00:11:30] JOSH: The lawsuits, the rules are in place for people to follow them. And when websites don't follow them, they open the door to possibilities of a lawsuit happening. In my opinion, it's so important to recognize that the persons with disabilities are the most untapped population and customer that you can be experiencing. And right now, if your website's not accessible, you're basically shut the door on them. And you've told them that they're not welcome. So it's so important in my eyes to recognize that there's a lot more than you can do from a revenue generation from a business standpoint if you open your doors and make your website accessible and usable to people with disabilities. I know for myself doing my own research. There was a Nielsen study done in 2017 that ended up showing that the disability population is the most brand-loyal community in the entire nation, the most brand-loyal population. And the reason why that is is when someone with a disability is treated right, we remember it. We go back as repeat customers over and over and over again because we have so few options, and we then recommend it to our community members, our friends, our family, and it's just, it's. It's the best, like advertisement possible or the best marketing push for any business to make their website accessible. Yes. Lawsuits do occur, and they will continue to occur just because we are a litigious society, but I really hope businesses don't wait for a lawsuit to knock on their door before they actually do the right thing and to become inclusive to an audience that's willing and ready and wanting to use their product services and information.

[00:13:23] KRISTINA: That's a great point, I think, especially for anybody who's listening today, cause there's such an opportunity there. And so, even from a strictly business perspective, which includes not just the fiscal aspect, although that is tremendous because the community is great. But also from that brand loyalty brand promotion longer-term perspective, there's such a great opportunity that the question is almost like, why not, why not include accessibility as a fundamental thing? Just like we include usability, do you like this red color versus this blue color? It's like, can you see this color at all? Or do you have colorblindness so different? Good point there, but Josh, you mentioned accessiBe. Can you tell us a little bit more about that in what you're doing there? It sounds like there's a lot of interesting stuff.

[00:14:04] JOSH: The thing that I love most about accessiBe, I kind of joined the team and spread awareness about web accessibility. Right now, we have over 350 million websites in the US and world that are not accessible. This means right now, we have 2% of the internet accessible, meeting guidelines and standards set out to meet web accessibility standards. And that 2% is such a low number. It hurts me to even think and say that out loud, like 2%. Imagine being any person without a disability and saying that you can only access 2% of the city. And by the way, it's going to be scattered all over the city. And what do you go to search for it? You might not even know what is accessible and what's not accessible. It's a huge, huge web accessibility gap. So, I always think of this as a problem. What is a solution and accessiBe provides tools and technologies that create automation and artificial intelligence to basically make a website, meet certain accessibility standards, to get your website to the point that it is accessible and functional in many ways. They have all these profiles systems. Based on your unique disability, that you can make a website more customized for yourself. So it's, there's a button on your website, you click on it, and then you have the ability to do visually impaired. You have a motor disability. If you have epilepsy, it will stop the blinking gifs and blinking lights from being on the site. If you have a cognitive disability, it makes the website easier. If you have an ADHD disability, you click that profile, and it creates an area that you can focus on reading and certain things and blocks. Other areas are no motor disabilities. It allows you to be able to navigate the site a lot easier than an onscreen keyboard, and for the visually impaired, if there's one that allows it to pop and make, make it a lot brighter and easier to read, and then another profile for blind research that hooks up with your screen meter and allows it to be more fun, more customizable for your ability to use the website as well. So accessiBe uses this type of technology, inserts a piece of code on your website, and then within a day, or even faster than a day, it gets your website up and running with accessibility. It's not a hundred percent accessible. So there are certain parts of the technology and tools that are still improving but meets the guidelines to meet accessibility standards. It's incredible from a scalable standpoint to be able to do that and quickly get a website up and running from an accessibility standpoint. My favorite thing is that the difference between this type of scale solution versus kind of the traditional model, which is where you have to manually code each page, each line. And that can take days if weeks and months and every time you have to update that website, whenever it is updated with accessibility. And that, that, takes that can cost thousands upon thousands of dollars or accessiBe is just $50 a month, which makes it so much easier for businesses to afford to make their website accessible. I don't ever want a website to not make their site accessible because of money because that's not the right thing to do. It's this is an important audience. If you have a website, you need to make it accessible, but this just provides an important and easier option for businesses to choose from.

[00:17:46] KRISTINA: AccessiBe got me really excited, content that isn't accessible necessarily to start with, to become accessible. And the reason that I was getting excited about that is that a lot of organizations that I work with and talk to regularly have hundreds and thousands of legacy pages, and for them to go back and make them all accessible is just never going to happen. I mean, that's just the reality. There are so many things they have to do, and the lights have to stay on that folks kind of fail to grandfather, those old pages or existing pages. And they say, oh, you know what? We might get to them. The next time we do a redesign, and the reality is we never get to them. But having sort of a layer tool that can help us make those pages accessible or transform them and make them accessible to folks is so incredibly exciting because all of a sudden, you don't have to spend thousands and thousands of man-hours or promise something that you never deliver on. It's actually something that we can proactively do right now. Does that sound about right? Am I getting the concept?

[00:18:44] JOSH: Yeah, you're doing a great job; accessible tools and technologies do daily scans of your website and fill in all the blanks. So many of the different parts where otherwise it wouldn't meet accessibility standards, and it puts it in there within the access to the tool. So it's just transformative to not have to worry about. Is your website going to be accessible for the visitors that come onto your site? And accessiBe tool, work smart in the background to make that happen for websites. And that's why it's changing the game. And it does it on a scalable level where, as you said, it can take thousands of hours or this, you put the code on there, and it does the work. It does the work behind the scene and on a daily basis. It's just it's game-changing to my eyes and that it gives me hope that this is the way that we are going to bridge the web accessibility gap from going from 2% to 10%, to 50%, to 80% or a hundred percent. I hope someday that we can do it. And I know in order to really do it like this, it has to be through a scalable solution. We just don't have it now. Coders in the world to be able to do 351 million sites and the coders are extremely talented. They're so good at what they're due, but there's, there's, there's not enough of them. I love accessiBe solutions.

[00:20:07] KRISTINA: I'm personally getting really excited too because it makes me sad when a lot of the teams are using tools, and there's plenty of scanning tools out there that tell you like, oh, you have 48% accessibility rate for your website. And that's for people who are really truly trying. And it makes the content creators feel bad because they're like, wow, you know what? I have all this inaccessible content. And it seems like they're so busy. They can never actually make a difference. And so it seems like everybody's caught in a cycle.

And at the end of the day, it just somehow accessibility falls off the side of somebody's desk because it is just a side job. And so, it really is exciting that we might be able to move the needle using technology and do it in a way that makes sense. And also, I think it does sit from a user-centric perspective where we're not having to kind of lump everybody together, but as you said, recognize the fact that everybody has a different need and really tailor that because technology is scalable. We have AI; we have the way to do this. We just have to be smart and get it done—so really exciting stuff. So thank you for doing that.

[00:21:06] JOSH: Just like not knowing much about the disability world. Businesses might not know if they're compliant or semi-compliant or not compliant at all. And the best way to do that is to use auditing tools. So like there's one called Google Lighthouse, accessiBe has one. So if you go to accessiBe.com/ace , you basically just go to that webpage, but your website and it does a full report of your entire website and lets you know, kind of all the different areas that that need to be fixed. And it's just it's so amazing just to learn kind of, oh, I didn't know that this, you gotta do this for titles or this or this with forms or oh, none of your pictures had alt text, which allows someone that's blind to understand what the picture is actually saying how to experience it and absorb it if you're if you can't see it. So it's, it's just technology. It's transformative. I know it's transformed my life just on a daily basis outside the internet, but it's also from a computer standpoint; I use a mouth stick to control my cursor and onscreen keyboard to kind of navigate and move around pages or faster. And then, I also use voice dictation. So as fast as I can speak to types. It's technology. So artificial intelligence and automation are the future.

[00:22:29] KRISTINA: Well, I'm excited because I agree with you. And so I just am learning about new ways that we can use technology. And it's just so much fun and used for your good, right? Because we always talk about things like artificial intelligence having pitfalls, and I'm sure we still do, not that we're getting really all that great about having unbiased algorithms or really applying machine learning in the way that we ought to, but the fact that we're learning and using it in new ways and helpful ways is really promising. So really excited about that. Quick question, though, around accessiBe and just your experience, because I think that when we look at accessibility, there are the WCAG guidelines. But we also have section 5 0 8 in the federal space. If you go to different governments, we have different requirements from a regulatory perspective. Does accessible address all of those different requirements, or how do you deal with different requirements across sectors or international government regulations?

[00:23:22] JOSH: So the best way to understand accessiBe tools kind by comparing it to the traditional model, the traditional model, you have to go to every page, every line of code to make it accessible. But what accessiBe does is it puts in a piece of code, and then it does a scan through artificial intelligence and automation to fill in a lot of the areas that are not meeting accessibility, standards, and guidelines. And what that does. It does it on a daily basis, and it kind of works behind the scenes. And then once that's done, you also have a button on your webpage that you click it, and it props up all of these profiles for unique disabilities, which is basically creates a customized approach for someone that is either paralyzed or someone that has a visual impact. Or epilepsy. So let's say with epilepsy profile, if you turn it on, it stops all blinking lights and gifts that can trigger an event. If you have ADHD, you click that profile, and it creates an area where it kind of makes one area really easy to read it. And the other. It kind of makes it darker so you can focus on what you're trying to read. For, for blind users, it enables your screen reader to be able to be more usable with a site for blind for paralysis or mobility impaired users it allows you to use your own onscreen keyboard more easily. So it's, it's incredible to have a more customized approach to experience your website and to do that. That's really what accessiBe does for your website. And it does the scans on a daily basis. So as you update your website, it ends up updating the accessibility as well, which is game-changing. It just keeps getting better and better with time, which as a person with a disability, just gives me so much hope and optimism that we're, we're just gonna keep getting better and better and more scalable. And then businesses in the world are going to recognize that it's no longer hard to make your website accessible. It's not going to take those thousands of hours. It's actually just; it's going to be a lot easier. Let's have a difficult experience. And then there's going to be the peace of mind that you can create custom profiles for all these different disabilities for them to truly experience your site in the unique way that they can best access it.

[00:25:51] KRISTINA: When accessiBe goes in and actually creates, or I'm going to say transforms, does it actually transfer content and make it accessible on the fly, or does it store that? Because I think that if it does store that content like if it actually runs the scans and if it actually makes it or translates it into accessible content, it certainly helps from an accessibility perspective, but then it also helps everyday users. It helps with our search engine optimization. It helps with usability for folks who don't even have d disability. So there are much greater implications here than just for those who are disabled.

[00:26:28] JOSH: So it doesn't change the code of your website other than the little piece of code that you put into a kind of connect it with the accessibility tool and technology on a daily basis, it goes in a kind of outside of your website, and when the tool is turned on, it makes your website accessible and that it makes your website meet those guidelines of accessibility. So that's where it's kind of really changing the narrative of the ease of use and keeping things updated with those daily scans. And what's awesome when the software needs to improve itself, if it finds an area where it needs to fix a problem, it can do it to all of the websites that use accessibility or once which, hundreds of thousands of websites are subscribers to accessiBe right now. So let's say there's something like a bug or somebody that needs to be fixed; you don't have to go into individually, all 100,000 of those websites, you actually can do it from the accessories end to fix it right there. And then boom, it's fixed for all a hundred thousand plus what sites, that that's the way to make scalable solutions and to make websites across the world accessible at once.

[00:27:41] KRISTINA: And we've been talking a lot about websites. What about other digital products? I'm thinking about mobile apps or Alexa, Google devices, or any other voice-activated device that we have in the house? We have a lot of IOT devices, washing machines, et cetera. There's such a broad range of digital products that go well beyond the website. How are you seeing accessibility or lack thereof working in those other things?

[00:28:06] JOSH: So for me personally, my entire house is controlled by, I'm afraid almost to say her name, but the A- name. And it's just, I control my lights, my thermostat, my TV, like my there's just so many things that I'm able to control with just my voice, and it's transformative because I, I can't walk. I can't use my arms cause I can't use my fingers and to be able to have that. And watch. And really, just in the last six years, watch out that has just continued to improve and get more it better and better and better. And it creates a competitive atmosphere within the industry. Let's see who can do this better than everyone else. So definitely, I love competition in the sense that it pushes the envelope. It makes for a more accessible world. And when it comes to like applications on apps, that's another big area that needs to be addressed because more and more people are using apps rather than or just using apps in general. And depending on whether it's using kind of like though the web-based approach, or if it's like a more of a native approach, accessibility doesn't always. It doesn't always happen. So that's another important area that needs to be addressed. And the accessiBe team is diving into that and focusing on that as well.

[00:29:24] KRISTINA: Well, I'm excited because if nothing else, I feel like they're going to challenge everybody else to rise to the occasion. And like you said, push out a new solution. That's going to get everybody else to have to meet at least that standard, if not superseded, which can't be a bad thing; it should be a good thing for all of us. Josh, what do you want everybody else to go off and do like, if, if we can kind of talk amongst ourselves and this is going to include me as well, what should we all go off and do? What are the two or three things you want us all to do in the coming days or months in terms of making the world more accessible?

[00:29:55] JOSH: I think first just recognizing that there are many, many different types of abilities in each of those abilities have to have to absorb information in different ways and making sure that each one of those populations has the same opportunities and can access the information that you provide to the world. It's just, it's important. It's going to make the world a better place, a more inclusive place. And you are going to see increases in revenue because these populations now are going to be able to be welcomed to your website and experience it just like everyone else. Also, it's just so important to go do an audit of your website. Go to accessibly.com/ace and find out where you stand. You might be nailed it out of the park and already compliant, or you might be missing the mark in certain areas. You won't know him until you take that lead to test it out and make sure you're aware of what, where you stand. And then, then being able to then take the next level of doing what it takes to become compliant, whether it's the traditional model or with more than scalable models, but with tools and technologies like excessively, you know what, I don't care how websites become accessible. All I care about is that they are accessible because it just changes the narrative, and I'm waiting for the day for more and more websites to continue to change their website to an accessible website.

[00:31:28] KRISTINA: That's great advice. And so I appreciate that because it's very tangible. And honestly, for $50 a month, being able to put a tool and make any website more accessible to me is such a low bar. It's even a bar that a lot of small businesses can adopt, which usually isn't the case in terms of technology. Some things are just too expensive. They only apply to the really big tech stacks. But in this instance, we're actually talking about everybody being able to reach some good mark of accessibility without having to spend a lot of time.

[00:31:57] JOSH: And you get, you get the peace of mind of, because it does a daily scan of your website that whenever you update the site or change something here or change something there, you don't have to then go back in and recode everything. It allows you to focus on your business and allow your visitors to be able to have better, more welcoming experiences.

[00:32:20] KRISTINA: I love that. So everybody goes check out. Take a look at the scan of your site and see where you are, and certainly a wonderful option, I think, to bring to the organization as you consider, what are the risks and also what are the really big opportunities of making sure that more people can access the information on your website, use the website and certainly take advantage of your products and services that you're selling. And don't forget, as Josh mentioned, that it's not just about that single user who buys a product today. It's also about ensuring that your brand is well seen throughout society, and word of mouth is highly powerful, and that can be a great opportunity and a great service rather than a risk. Flip this, I think on its head, look at it as an opportunity rather than a risk or an overhead or something that you must do. That's not necessarily a priority. There are ways to do this in a very digestible way, regardless of where you are, what size you are, or who you are as part of the digital team. So Josh, thank you so much. We really appreciate you sharing your perspective on your personal journey as well. And if folks want to get in touch with you or learn more, it is accessible the best place to reach.

[00:33:29] JOSH: You can learn more about me on accessiBe.com. You scroll down the page, you'll see, meet the Unstoppables. And I have a profile within there that you can learn about me. And just you always reach out to accessiBe to get my contact information, and happy to speak with you.

[00:33:47] KRISTINA: Great. Thanks so much, Josh; again, I appreciate your time and your insights. As well as just an ability for everybody to understand that accessibility does not have to be this huge, heavy lift that we've thought of traditionally, but there are ways to almost circumvent and shortcut the process and make it happen. So let's all go out there and make it happen.

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